Discussion

Messerschmitt Bf 109s of KG(J)6

Cover previewThe difficulties connected with implementation of Me 262 into operational service especially the lack of experienced fighters resulted in a rare process of retraining pilots from disbanded Kampfgeschwaders to jet fighters. The end of the process – combat sorties of retrained pilots with Me 262s – is described in the title “Messerschmitt Me 262s of KG & KG(J) Units”.
This study covers historical background of Kampfgeshwaders transfer into Kampfgeschwader(J) units with focus on KG 6 and KG(J) 6 and its training in the area of Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren. The historical text part is followed by detailed analysis of 16 Bf 106G-6, G-10 and K-4 used by the unit.

Discussion forumMesserschmitt Bf 109s of KG(J)6

9. 4. 2018, 17:43
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About RLM 83
from: Cristiano Griggio
Dear sirs,
I have found a short note in the text regarding the camouflage, tha color RLM 83 is a dark blue tone used for maritime Aircraft.
This was new to me.
Looking on the Internet I found a couple of threads, started by noted historian Michael Ullmann, regarding some documents from 1943 stating the shade was in test and approved for the Mediterranean theatre, but couldn't find any image of the document or the samples examined (although a small photo of a BV 138 float is on "preseved axis Aircraft" site).
Your short comment on the nature of RLM 83 leaves me in the same unconsiousness on the topic, whereas I used to be extremely interested and thoroughly informed, particularrly on the topic of late war RLM colors.
Can you add some line on the subject (maybe some clues or link to the original document) or it is going to be a subject for a future book? And do you have abandoned the project of using the tanks of RLM colors you have found during the reserch for the FW 90D volumes to make color chips for a third volume?
Best regards.
26. 4. 2018, 22:26
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Re: About RLM 83
from: Tomáš Poruba   to: Cristiano Griggio
Dear Mr. Griggio,
thank you for your question about RLM 83 topic. You touched hot topic of camouflage dilemma of late war Luftwaffe aircraft and important topic for our research too. It is needed to say, a research of the question isn’t finished yet and new documents can be found in future. So, our today’s position hasn’t to be final.
Our today’s position is based on the research of Michael Ullmann you mentioned. We haven’t any “direct” document about the colour, but what it important, the Michael’s explanation of RLM 83 topic perfectly matches to all discrepancies around RLM 83 colour from our own research. The main problem is – there is only one note about RLM 83 in original German documents from 1944/45 year (the Sammelmitteilung Nr. 2 from 15.8.1944). No other material notes the colour even if we have documents about painting late war types like Do 335, He 162, Ta 152, Fi 156, BV 155B, Me 262, etc. Why?
The second important discrepancy is – only three main colours existed for painting particular combat aircraft (fighters, bombers, etc.) all war. The late war combination was RLM 76, 81 and 82. The RLM 83 would be “extra” and it doesn’t match to the system.
Even original colour chips (found after war in Prague-Ruzyně airfield), that we own, don’t content any marking RLM 83. Only one is marked on its backside - Nr.82.
Michael’s research and explanation solved all the discrepancies and it was a reason, we believe the one. Or course, as I wrote, it could happen, new documents and information will be find and situation change again.
The topic would require more space for a description and we hope to make it in some our next title. It would be suitable like a preface of our Fw 190D Camouflage and marking Volume III title, so I hope, we do it.
And a short note to your last question. The original German colours used in WNF factory for a production Bf 109G-10/U4 in Tišnov, that we have I our hands, don’t content any “RLM 83” shade. One canister, that contents dark “green-grey” colour, carries a rest of original paper marking shield with a sign “Kli?? ?ack 71??.81”.
Best regards
Tomáš Poruba
27. 4. 2018, 21:59
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Re:Re: About RLM 83
from: Jean-Christophe Meylan   to: Tomáš Poruba
Dear Mr. Poruba,
Many thanks for your explanations! I also read the Michael Ullmann's comments and the document about the RLM 83 in the forum 12 O'Clock High! (forum.12oclockhigh.n…), as well as Jean-Claude Mermet's researches (official RLM documents didn't describe the use of RLM 83 for the camouflage of Fw 190 and Ta 152).
I am glad reading news about your Fw 190D Camouflage and markings Volume III title, because it seems strongly awaited for a while by a lot of people... ;-)
By the way, do you schedule to update and reprint Fw 190D Camouflage and markings Volume I & II titles?

Best regards,
Jean-Christophe Meylan
7. 6. 2018, 18:57
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Re:Re: About RLM 83
from: Cristiano Griggio   to: Tomáš Poruba
Dear mr. Poruba,
thank you very much for finding your time to answer and forgive me for being so late to reply.
I think the topic on late war Luftwaffe colors is one of the most popular and debated, sometimes with a touch of imaginative conjecture.
As you note, known documents just mention 83 without any clue on it's use, and it may well be that it was intended for aircraft ment to fly over water with 72-73, although I can't remember a single image or phisical sample (except the one described by Ullman) with a blue splinter or wellenmuster, whereas many records show light overspray or banding over dark camouflage.
Part of the topic is the variable tone of 81 and late 76, in sheer contrast with the relatively constant tone of 82.
I hope these researches may proceed and find many new documents, like the fantastic ones presented in your and others excellent books from JaPo, found in the Czeck territory; many of them we didn't even dreamt of before your publications.
Thank you very much again for your kind reply, I hope to see the new volume in FW 190 D very soon, and hope in some more comments on late war Luftwaffe colors.
Cristiano Griggio

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